It can’t just be barristers who keep digging long after they should have stopped. Geeklawyer pointed to an episode recently where a barrister behaved rather badly with a fellow blogger, stories are legion about barristers taking wrong or bad points in court or not getting the point or to the point and now we have a marvelllous BabyBaristaesque farce going on between Troubled Barrister and Ed on Simon Myerson QC’s blog Pupillage and how to get it.
In fairness.. I am not entirely sure whether Troubled Barrister is just doing a wind up and having been a gravedigger when I was at law school, I did offer him my spade if he wanted to dig an even bigger hole.
Briefly: Simon Myerson QC has put up a post naming and shaming Chambers where prospective barristers have written to him/commented on his blog about the negative experiences (and the good experiences) they have had with Chambers when applying for pupillage.
TroubledBarrister (To use the name style of Tim Kevan’s BabyBarista) weighs in with... “…I think it is a bit unfair to get people to “anonymously” call out chambers and even more so individual people. If you think they are being nasty then just wait until you in front of LJ this case is beneath me or HHJ I am going to take your client’s crap case on you.”
Ed // July 15, 2009 at 5:20 pm | Reply
@Troubled Barrister
So you don’t think it’s unprofessional to treat job applicants with contempt?
Troubled Barrister // July 15, 2009 at 6:17 pm | Reply
What a stupid rhetorical question, in short alot of you need to toughen up a bit. It is a nasty world out there!
Horse With No Name // July 15, 2009 at 11:39 pm | Reply
Dear Troubled Barrister,
It may well be a nasty world but is that an excuse for rudeness?
Ed // July 15, 2009 at 11:58 pm | Reply
@Troubled Barrister
Hit a nerve, did I? Poor lamb. “Other people behave like poo-poos to those they have power over, so I must too, or they won’t think I’m rock-hard”.
Don’t worry, TB. I think you’re rock-hard. We all think that. Honestly.
Troubled Barrister // July 16, 2009 at 1:00 am | Reply
I wont dignify Ed with a response to his extremely immature post.
Horse – of course it doesnt make it right being rude; however, there is no sense crying about it. I know very well the heart ache of trying to find pupillage and how it can be a frustrating an upsetting experience it can be.
Calling out chambers and individuals is:
a)Serves very little purpose
b) Just plain wrong if people are going to do it from behind a computer screen
simonmyerson // July 16, 2009 at 1:25 am | Reply
Sorry TB – you’re wrong.
I don’t disagree that comments about individuals are unhelpful, but I reckon that anyone who is Head of Chambers and in silk will recognise frustration for what it is and – as you insist – be tough enough to take it.
That is a side issue. You say that you know how hard it is to get pupillage but it’s not ok to say anything about the things that make it not simply hard, but unacceptable. Sorry: I don’t understand how that works.
Then you write a frankly insulting comment to an applicant – you being in a position of power compared to them – and then you complain that they are calling people out anonymously. I’ve looked you up in the Bar list – can’t find anyone named Barrister, Troubled.
***
I do urge you to go and read the rest of it. Maybe Tim Kevan was closer to life with his BabyBarista book than he anticipated…. marvellous stuff… and I now know what the phrase “See you next Tuesday” stands for… so one learns something every day.
Excellent!
What is it they say about truth being stranger than fiction? Thanks as always Charon for a great blog.
Tim… Excellent…. I thought you’d enjoy this one! Have a good weekend.
You may hero worship SM but I dont. Listened to one of your podacst where you were extremely sycophantic towards SM; to the point of it being a eulogy. In fact, much of this blog has the punch of a Richard and Judy interview. Also, please don’t patronise me – “if I am digging a hole” just leave me to it – a good advocate doesnt warn his opponent when he is making a mess of his submissions (but maybe you have forgotten that being a Barrister a long time ago).
I discussed my views last night with other members of Chambers. One person called SM’s blog an as arrogance and always putting the Bar down; another person said (without any prodding from me) SM by posting an attack on Chambers is being defamtory, bringing the Bar into disrepute and shows an extreme lack of judgement. I posted some time ago SM always puts the Bar down this is just another example of it.
Maybe you will get off the student bandwagon of it is everbodies fault but mine that I can’t get a pupillage and reconsider your stance.
I have always admired people who look at themselves for fault before blaming the rest of the world.
It has made my day that Baby B is going to read this. Though I am shocked it has now come to light he seems to be someone that does a lot of credit-hire work. You never know soon it might be a court room battle of Baby B v Troubled B.
Nothing like a flame war between barristers and such articulated arguments, TB you really flex your well honed advocacy skills by invoking the argument often applied by Fox News that “some people say” or to quote “one person says and so does another” to somehow back up your argument which is only ever going to be a matter of perception, neither side holds the truth scrolls on this one.
Your assertion that SM “attacking” the bar is defamatory and brings the bar into disrepute is the most stupid assertion I have ever heard. It’s actually “criticism” which is healthy for the bar, the closed door whispering and antics over yesteryear are going to end, have you not got wind of this cultural shift in all walks of life. The debate needs to happen and will.
Lastly your labelling of “student bandwagon” as being unable to take responsibility for their actions, is incredibly patronising and indicative of your mindset.
No wonder you’re troubled. See you next wednesday.
“The debate needs to happen and it will”. Where? On a blog with anonymous posts from anonymous disatisfies students who cant find a pupillage and want to blame everyone but themselves. And where do you think your so called “debate” will end up and what do you think will be the end result of your “debate”? This isn’t a debate – it is a bunch of grumbling students who as I said blame everybody but temselves for their failure. Of interest is that when in your “debate” one student resorts to swearing to which you seek to mimic.
Troubled Barrister – identify yourself and I may well listen to you… but you ain’t got the balls to do that which is why your views are of absolutely no value to anyone – and are worthy only of parody.
Your email address is, hardly surprising, a fake.
I like Simon Myerson and applaud what he does to help prospective barristers – which seems to be a lot more than you are prepared to do.
SM is well able to care care of his own battles.
I don’t do sycophancy Troubled Barrister – but if you are prepared to come into the open and have the balls to insult me – to my face with your identity as a barrister revealed – and others who you have insulted then I may just take you seriously.
I have a feeling were you to meet me that you might not be quite so keen to be offensive… at least, if you have any common sense. Most people tend not to go around insulting people they meet face to face. Piece of cake on a blog when anonymous – but hardly impressive behaviour for a ‘barrister’. Talk about bringing the profession into disrepute!
And if I wish to patronise you – I reserve the right to do so. This is my blog and if you post anything abusive on here I reserve the right to re-edit it and make you look even more ridiculous.
I haven’t, for the record, edited your first comment.
Of course.. you may be playing an even more subtle game and be doing a double bluff piss take… I do hope so… now that would be amusing.
The “debate” is happening much wider than you are aware of, this blog posting is only a touchstone of what is happening in the wider legal community. Open your eyes.
I think you steered the argument to one of being “students” moaning about why they haven’t got a pupillage. In fact they were stating that they wanted to be treated without such disrespect and disregard.
You can’t stop the shifts in culture ultimately changing the way the Bar will operate. The legal profession is having to change because the clients are changing.
The debate won’t have a conclusion, because one day soon the tipping point will be upon you and then the change will happen, it’s evolutionary. Culture change happens because of dissatisfaction with the current culture.
Old styles of management technique that you report are part of the course and toughen you up are over, they’ve been over for years every where else and guess what they were never effective in the first place, read your Kotter if you want to explore it.
I don’t mimic, I’m being facetious and referencing John Landis if you must know.
Ha ha thaks for making my weekend over and out until Sunday.
“I am a complete prat who gets his kicks in the upstairs bedrooms of my mum’s house and I’ve also got a phone so I can download stuff and watch it on my phone….. ” (Edited by Charon – TB didn’t write this, obviously!)
***
Well… I did warn you that I would edit your posts … now piss off….
Charon/Mike
Gosh, today’s dose of the cut and thrust of the legal world. I do enjoy these pieces.
Can give it but can’t take it sign of weakness
TB – On the contrary…. can’t see the point… but your threeIP adddresses have given me all the information I need for the present…
I do so enjoy putting the boot into those who truly, truly deserve it. Until Tuesday, TB.
TB – OK – here is a plan… fancy doing a podcast so you can express your views and thoughts?
Quite happy to give you a platform – and I won’t reveal your name.
My podcasts, by the way, are designed to provide information – not to crucify the guests….
Can’t really say fairer than that. You will be able to explain why you are Troubled….
Over to you
I’m going to bet he doesn’t have the balls.
Mike do you believe I have been unfair to you?
TB… I’m actually quite enjoying this…
I remember your comments on various blogs some time ago – Law Minx et al so assumed you were having a laugh. There was a wonderful irony – and you have to admit that – in criticising SM for allowing anonymous posters to criticise various chambers from behind the cloak of anonymity while you were doing the same to criticise them and SM .
Your three IP addresses indicate that you get about – no more than that. I am, of course, curious about finding out your name, where you practice from but even if I did find out who you are – because you revealed yourself – I would not ‘Out’ you – not my style at all.
I do enjoy a laugh and I have to admit that your Richard and Judy line was pretty good… I didn’t mean to delete that one… but can’t reinstate it once deleted.
I’m still convinced in the back of my moind that you are winding people up – but I could be wrong.
Come and do a podcast (my email address is mikesp@insitelawmagazine.com) at least you’ll be able to put your views.
What’s sad is that I worry TB doesn’t actually enjoy being a barrister – I’ve had other jobs and this one is brilliant precisely because everyone helps each other out and is, usually, pleasant with it. Sure, you meet the odd person that gets on your wick, or is a bit abrupt, but you will anywhere.
I’ve never met a judge (ET or DJ or HHJ or even J – LJJ are well beyond my career at present) that I thought was an out and out bully. Those that are rude are known for being rude, and as has previously been said, seen as foolish. Many will call you out on your work if you’re being shoddy, but they’ve got standards in mind.
Perhaps if TB sees the bar as a place of rudeness, and judges as being routinely rude to him, it might be because his mastery of the ad hominem argument, demonstrated throughout these discussions, makes it into his advocacy. Now that would get the judge shouting.
Saying the bar’s rude, judges are rude, so let’s get on with it, risks bringing the bar into far more disrepute than saying ‘these chambers have shoddy recruitment procedures, these have good ones, I really still want to be a barrister.’
[x-posted on SMQC]
Sir,
Changing the subject somewhat, I used to request that my diggers refrained when they reached the magical six feet.
Unless of course they were unusually obese. In which case I would allow them fifteen minutes or so of final reflection as they dug the final few feet in the fresh countryside air, prior to their last solo journey.
I refer of course to the planting of cabbages within the grounds of my Kirkintilloch retreat.
Lunch was fine yesterday, your new club is indeed worthy of another visit soon. I am however having trouble removing the smell of massage oil from my good pinstripe suit.
Cocktails at the Lamb and Flag on Wednesday eve, I’ll arrange the entertainment.
cheerio,
JB
Jimmy
Excellent to hear from you. As you can see … the learned friends are demonstrating their skills on a rare afternoon out of the asylum…..
I am enjoying the cricket…. but Strauss won’t be popular for not enforcoing the follow on if there is an England batting collapse…
The Lamb and Flag is a good choice…. I’ll be there… are you bringing some exotic entertainment?
PS.. Yes I had heard that you had a penchant for burying trouble makers in the grounds leaving their heads above ground so they could see you enjoying your cigar and wine…. Is this a Glasgow thing?
I am just finding this all rather sad. All we Aspirants ask for is to be treated with civility, and a soupcon of common decency. Nothing more The risk of not obtaining pupillage is very high, and we are perfectly aware of that; we do not need to have it rubbed in by those who feel that it is almost their right to treat us like something they have scraped off the bottom of their shoes.
Simon has been nothing but kind and helpful, to those attempting to enter the profession, to say nothing of generous of his time and his advice.
Troubled Barrister, his Chambers, and his Ilk, would do well to take a leaf out of his book.
( TB, I confess to being very hurt by your sentiments; as I have said before, you are not the person who used to comment on my blog. I wonder what happened to you between then, and now?)
Sir,
Not so much a Glesga thing, more a case of thrift on my part. Have you any idea of the cost of mechanical golfing cups?
I must say I am enjoying this whole ‘Troubled Barrister’ wheeze. Lots more to come with the little blighters now being on hols.
Do let me know if you would like him traced.
cheerio,
JB
Law Minx…. I’m afraid I have not helped, possibly with my post. I genuinely though that TB may be teasing or doing a wind up.
Still not sure – can’t see any reason for anyone to be rude – not a particularly persuasive advocacy technique I would have thought?
Anyway… enough…. no point in continuing with this….. I do like a bit of good banter but can’t see any pojnt at all in abuse…
Good to hear from you… and great to see that you are still blogging…
Ha ha what a good response, I am genuinely smiling. Of course some of it is slightly a wind up but much of it I mean. Comes from my old student journalist days where I wrote the gossip column. Let me think about it. Whatever happens happy to meet with you and have a chat, I will buy that Palmer 82.
Still not going to reply to the man child Ed
Never said I don’t enjoy it. It is a job I which I love sometimes hate other times. I think most barristers feel the same way
Sir James…..
There is not enough legal work around… we must all do what we can to keep ourselves amused….
I’m thinking…. a bottle of Rioja would be good to drink while watching England bat…. I do enjoy test cricket… and I haven’t quite worked out why…
A good weekend to you
Best…
C
Also never said all judges and oops are rude and you are right if they were I would question myself
TB… Excellent…. It would be fun….
Palmer 82, you say?
You know how to contact me if you do fancy doing a podcast….. Ed.. I am quite sure… can handle things….
I shall watch the rest of the cricket while I drink a bottle of something red… 14% should do the trick…
Enjoy your weekend…
student journalist days writing the gossip column, are you sure you’re not Alistair Campbell? You seem to have a lot in common.
Phew!! I’m glad that back and forth has given way to amicability :p
Albeit grudgingly perhaps.
Michael…. I am always amicable… saw quite enough rather too real conflict when I was in Africa 35 years ago to last a lifetime.
AC Grayling tells us that life is less than 1000 months and we need to spend some time thinking what we’re going to do with it.
I reckon I may have 100-200 months left… and I shall enjoy all of them
TB did, to be fair, have some rather good lines… I deleted, by accident, an amusing comment suggesting that I should watch “This Morning” to sharpen up my podcast interviewing technique…. this was deleted in error because there was a double post on another point and I selected too many posts. Once deleted I can’t reinstate.
THAT was funny… and was an excellent response… Pity Geeklawyer was busy getting pissed in Brighton or it could have been an even more surreal session..
And… just to be difficult… I did edit one of TBs posts… but I did warn him…It is only a blog….
Cricket was good today…. England 520 runs ahead and two days to bowl the Aussies out at Lords… we haven’t beaten Aussies at Lords in a Test match since 1934… so life has been good today…all round.
[...] 19, 2009 · Leave a Comment I got a pingback from Charon’s blog and went to look. I discovered that my ears should have been burning, although, oddly they [...]
OK… enough already…as they say.
I should not, perhaps, have diverted attention from the main issues being discussed on Simon Myerson’s blog with an absurd cartoon etc etc…
I’m a blogger. I used to be involved in legal education. I still retain an interest in legal education but now I find the law far more fascinating because I have time to read it and to talk to practitioners, academic and students, than I used to.
I used to know a fair bit about a little – the subjects I enjoyed teaching. Now, I know a little about a great many more issues and areas of law – and this, for me, is far more interesting than the former. This has come about because of my own change in life and through the genuinely interesting people who are kind enough to give up their time for podcasts.
The issues that prospective barristers are raising on Simon Myerson’s Pupillage and How to get it blog are important and I won’t divert attention from those further here.
Cheers!
Oh goodness, I was walking a metaphorical dark and troubled landscape in pensive mood and this has brightened me up. As long you don’t mention the cricket.
I am of course not a lawyer and unfamiliar with the shenanigans but in a world where the evil axis of Eton-Oxford-Temple rules, I am not surprised at the ‘toughen up a bit and take it straight’ attitude of some.
BTW, I do not wish to discuss the cricket. I used to enjoy it until yesterday but it is a stupid game and should have been outlawed when McGrath and Warne retired. Frankly now, it is utterly pointless and from now on I shall agree with those who say it is boring.
Ms R – Excellent to hear from you…. trust all good in Ms R Land?
As it happens… the Aussies are staging a very serious fightback.. this could well allow England to do their special party trick and snatch defeat from the very jaws of victory…
Shenanigans are fun…. up to a point…. but I’m afraid that my digger cartyoon distracted attention from the actual substance of the issue for puils..
nice to have ms r around again – as ever, you brighten up the place.
SW – I concur… when are we going to drink rosso? Let’s do this!
it’s call next week and my aunt is en visite (perhaps you have seen her pen? it is small). the week after – we (err i) must make this happen or it never will!